Posted on January 9, 2009 - by Justin Hartman
Gaza: Why I think Israel is right
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Writing about the middle-east is about as wise as walking into a pub filled with Harley-Davidson bikers and telling them that only babies drive their crap bikes – However, here I am.
Let me state firstly that this post is not meant to piss people off (yet I’m sure it will) nor do I want to create a war on my personal blog however there are things about the whole middle-east conflict that I’d like to get off my chest.
Secondly I’d like to make a point that this middle-east crisis is as a result of a small quota of militant Palestinian militia who have continuously tried to disrupt peace in the region. I don’t believe that innocent Palestinians deserve to die nor do I believe that Muslims are the cause of the problem.
While it is easy to look at the current fact that Israel have killed 750 Palestinians in just 13 days of attacks we are all quick to forget the history, and ultimately the reasons, that lead to Operation Cast Lead. Let’s look at some of the facts.
Iran-backed Hamas Rocket and Mortar Attacks
- 9,400+ rockets and mortars fired from Gaza since 2003. [1]
- 3,200+ rockets and mortars fired from Gaza in 2008 alone. [2]
- 6,500+ rockets and mortars fired from Gaza since Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005. [3]
- 543+ rockets and mortars fired from Gaza into Israeli territory during the ceasefire from June 19 to Dec. 19, 2008. [4]
- 28 deaths caused by rockets and mortars fired from Gaza into Israel since 2001. The dead include Israelis, Palestinians and foreign workers. [5]
- 1,000+ people in Israel injured from rockets and mortars fired from Gaza since 2001, including Israelis, Palestinians and foreign workers. Since the ceasefire, 44 Israelis have been injured and 200 have been treated for shock. [6]
The critical point here is that despite a ceasefire militants continued their onslaught and in my mind it is impossible for any country, not just Israel, to continue avoiding attacks on your people when a handful of extremists keep disregarding the peace.
Condemned by South Africa
Closer to home though I am extremely upset with the ANC and SACP who have outright condemned the attacks by Israel. They’ve setup meetings with Israeli ministers to try and get them to stop and just yesterday former Congress of South African Trade Unions president and Congress of the People National Executive Committee member, Willy Madisha, has called on the government to condemn Israel over the ongoing war in Palestine.
The SABC reports that:
Madisha says Israel has for decades been killing thousands of Palestinians in a war that has been condemned internationally. He says hundreds of people are being killed, children are being stopped from going to school and people have no food at all.
“This is a major problem and we are calling the government of South Africa to rise and say to Israel that this is wrong and that it has got to be stopped. South Africa should echo other countries’ sentiments so that the Israeli onslaught on Gaza should cease,” Madisha said.
Now the only reason all of this upsets me is because our leaders are quick to jump on this political band-wagon while they’ve done absolutely nothing about the bigger problem just outside our borders – Zimbabwe. Why they’ve chosen to pick sides in this conflict and done nothing about the epidemic in Zimbabwe baffles me.
Fair and Just?
While I can see the facts and merits of Israel’s motivation to protect their nation I’m still undecided as to whether or not Operation Cast Lead is actually the right way of executing their rights.
Either way, let’s not forget that the middle-east is not unique in this scenario as all around the world we have Muslim extremists causing havoc and inflicting Holy Wars. There really is no place in the world for people like this.
Right, I’ve had my say, and I thought that I’d like to end with this cool comic I found which I believe sums the whole situation up.
~~~ Footnotes: ~~~
[1] IDF Spokesperson’s Unit, Dec. 19, 2008; “Iran-backed Terrorists in Gaza Kill 3, Wound Others in Continuing Rocket Attacks on Israel,” The Israel Project press release, Dec. 29, 2008; Barzak, Ibrahim and Friedman, Matti, “Israel rejects truce call, pursues bombing Gaza,” Associated Press, Dec. 31, 2008
[2] Ibid.
[3] Ibid.
[4] “Presentation to Military Attaches,” Israel Ministry of Defense, Dec. 2008
[5] “Rocket and Mortar Fatalities in Israel,” The Israel Project backgrounder; Kershner, Isabel, “Despite Strikes, Israelis Vow to Soldier On,” The New York Times, Dec. 30, 2008, “Iran-backed Terrorists in Gaza Kill 3, Wound Others in Continuing Rocket Attacks on Israel,” The Israel Project press release, Dec. 29, 2008
[6] “Rocket and Mortar Fatalities in Israel,” The Israel Project backgrounder, Israeli Police Spokesman in a conversation with The Israel Project, Dec. 31, 2008
For more stats please view this post.
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January 9, 2009
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If you see a pedophile that is holding two kids, you don’t shoot through the two kids to kill the pedophile. That is what Isreal is doing now.
Killing civilians can never be justified, what Israel is doing now is pure terrorism, nothing else.
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January 9, 2009
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You are a brave man I must admit. I am most definitely not intending to blog about this until I have a firm grasp on the facts, which is why I applaud you attempt here, you have a great grasp of stats and facts.
I 100% concur that our government should put up or shut up. What the bloody hell do we have to gain from pointing fingers at other when we are blindfolded to master bob’s repulsive actions and unjustifiable human rights violations in Zim.
Spot on in that regard.
I am reluctant to blog about this in much the same way as I have always been reluctant to discuss Turkey/Cyprus and the issues involved there. It’s a long battle that not many people truly grasp outside of the borders involved in the issues. There are deep-seated issues that exist that I just don’t understand and therefore will not willingly put my foot forward in either direction. But that’s just me.
The one thing I know is that innocents, children, woman and men who do not deserve the atrocities are always the ones affected the most. And the best we can do as way of explanation in these situations is “Collateral damage” – what a disgusting turn of phrase.
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January 9, 2009
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@Socraton I don’t want to condone killing innocent civilians especially woman and children – EVER! I agree this shouldn’t happen.
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January 9, 2009
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I think that comic strip encapsulates part of the problem well. As for this complaint that the Israelis are injuring civilians, well that is exactly what Hamas has intended all along and why it launches its attacks on Israel from within one of the most densely populated areas in the world. It is cowardly terrorism.
Hamas wants images of dead Palestinian children on TV. I just don’t understand why these protesters don’t see that. Where were the protest marches all those years Hamas was firing rockets into Israel anyway?
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January 9, 2009
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nice post Justin, its good to see people not just following the herd.
@socraton if you see a group of kids playing in the park… not harming anyone, would you be upset if someone constantly fired rockets at them, killing a few here and there?
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January 9, 2009
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Let me first state that I do not back Hamas or Israel as both sides are targeting and killing innocent people.
Your blog post is extremely one sided and omits the all important question as to why Hamas are acting the way they are?
Hamas are not just firing rockets for the sake of it, there is obviously a motivation behind their actions. I suggest you read up on the history of this conflict not just going back 2/3 years but since it all started to understand why. You can start with this first hand account of what the occupation is like http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_11409100 and see just what is driving these people to do what they do. Its apartheid all over and has been deemed illegal http://www.twnside.org.sg/title/2411.htm. This probably explains why the ANC has come out and said what they have.
Another few points about your post:
It is not a “small quota of militant Palestinian militia” it is Hamas, who have been democratically elected to government
The cease fire was broken by Isreal, not Hamas http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KntmpoRXFX4
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January 9, 2009
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@Maskil: http://tinyurl.com/a25lmk
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January 9, 2009
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@Scott – my blog post is intentionally one side because I’m trying to highlight why I feel Israel were warranted in protecting their people. I’m also stating that I’m undecided as to whether or not the force in which they are protecting their people is warranted but I understand why they’re doing it.
Hamas is technically a political party but their mandate is to recapture the State of Israel for Palestine and since 1987 they have been inflicting suicide and other attacks on Israeli civilians and security forces. The fact that they are democratically elected points to the problem that Muslim extremists now run a largely peaceful and oppressed people.
If you look at history this all points to a faction of Palestinians who, since the Six-Day war, have had a problem with Israeli rule over the promised land. This entire conflict stems from a disagreement of who “really” owns the land and hence why this conflict will never be resolved in my opinion.
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January 9, 2009
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I think it is very important to note that, contrary to what the traditional media report, Israel has broken the ceasefire every single time, not Hamas. See here, http://www.huffingtonpost.com/nancy-kanwisher/reigniting-violence-how-d_b_155611.html
Please note that I have no time for Hamas, or any religious fundamentalist political organisation.
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January 9, 2009
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This is by far the best post I have read today.
Great sum up of how thing really are.
As for Madisha, he really should consider becoming a comedian.
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January 9, 2009
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@Justin – I see your post and raise you mine – http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths2/gazawar.html
To be honest I don’t know what to believe any more about the ceasefire…
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January 9, 2009
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They are fighting ultimately about religion. There is no god (and if there was, would he want this?). They are all wrong.
Having said that, Israel have been getting away with bad stuff for far too long simply because they are friends with the US. I strongly suggest that you read some Noam Chomsky. It’ll open your eyes/mind.
Respect though, brave and well written post…!
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January 9, 2009
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Brave man!
Without taking sides, I think that it would be interesting to see the opposing stats.
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January 9, 2009
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Agree 110% with you about Zimbabwe – it is utterly beyond me why the ANC takes such an intense interest in Israel’s activities, but sits on their hands when it comes to Zimbabwe.
That area of the world is the cesspit of humanity, filled with people who hate each other.
It must be mentioned that the cartoon is a dangerously one-sided simplification…(e.g. doesn’t show orange man throwing green man off his land, that has caused green man to start poking him – unfortuanately for green man, he doesn’t have more powerful weaponry like orange man, so has to resort to this war of attrition).
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January 9, 2009
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@DChetty – have a look here http://www.btselem.org/English/Statistics/Casualties.asp
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January 9, 2009
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@Rich…! thanks man – will definitely check Noam Chomsky out!
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January 9, 2009
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@Capetonian lol at the cartoon!
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January 9, 2009
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Thanks for this post my friend! Some legal studies and a wise old man once told me that there are always 3 sides to a story the one side, the other side and then most importantly – the truth. I find many friends on both sides of the Gaza argument. I appreciate being presented with some facts and will use these and that from some other authoritive sources to better understand what is happening. Facts + facts = Ability to make informed observations/decisions!
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January 9, 2009
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“Only the dead have seen the end of the war.”
- Plato
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January 9, 2009
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Talking about Hamas representing the Palestinians is so far from the reality. See this movie from a Palestinian (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_OGhj43GAE). Hamas is a terror organization based on a very extreme Muslims ideas backed by Iran. There can’t be any base of talking between Hamas and Israel as Hamas is not talking on freeing the “occupied” territories but Hamas philosophy and ideas (which he mentioned time after time) is to destroyed Israel and kill Jews. Two years ago Hamas took over the Gaza strip from the Phatach (ruling Palestinian organization) by killing hundred of Phatach people and their supporters. Killing other Palestinians!!!!! The Arab world should support Israel in their war against the Hamas which will save the Palestinians from brutal terrorist organization. During the last years after Israel moved out of Gaza, Hamas instead of taking care of the population by buildings schools, hospitals and create a place which people can live in, was busy smuggling weapons and building his power. This is what Hamas understand. It does not know how to build a society. It is a terrorist organization.
Hamas is using children as a human shield, hiding and shooting beyond them waiting for the IDF to kill civilians and than show the world how cruel is Israel.
During the past 8 years Hamas was firing rockets on Israel. 8 years!! Which country in the world would agree to that? Why not many civilians where killed? Because Israel are protecting their civilians by building shelters and secure areas. The world should wake up and understand that Israel is in the front line against terrorism and the extreme Islam around the world. It should be supported as the extremist will continue to Europe (already started) and the rest of the world.
For the children who are being killed in Gaza, it is a trouble and unnecessary outcome of the cruelty of Hamas militant, firing rockets and bombs from schools and public buildings, forcing the IDF to shoot and those buildings which hundred of civilians are inside. Shocking!!
twisted to the extremest.
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January 9, 2009
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Thankyou for posting this, Justin. It takes courage!
Couple of points:
1. Hamas is internationally seen to be a terror organisation, whether elected or not.
2. Their mandate is to wipe Israel out – permanently.
3. As some of your respondents have said, they routinely place their missile launchers, bomb-making factories etc. in the homes, hospitals and universities , among the civilians. Pictures of dead and dying women and children make good PR and gain them sympathy round the world.
4. Their leaders have openly confessed that they have a culture of death, whereas Israelis have a culture of life.
5. How many people are aware of the fact that the IDF made thousands of cellphone calls to the citizens of Gaza, as well as dropping planeloads of leaflets, all warning the population to evacuate before they went in to strike at the terrorists? How many other armed forces do you know who do that?
6. Wounded Gazans are being treated in Israeli hospitals.
7.The entire Jewish community of Gaza left in 2005 so the “Palestinians” could move in. And immediately the whole area was turned into a staging ground for bombing Israel – 6000 rockets in 3 years, all aimed at Israeli civilians- homes, schools and kindergartens. There are small children who spent most of that time in bomb shelters, terrorstricken.
I could go on. This foretaste is for those who said they needed more info on the situation.
Try this blog, written by a South African journo living in Jerusalem – one who grew up under apartheid and fought it with everything he could; and was a card carrying ANC member.
http://www.stangoodenough.com
Here’s an interesting story:
IDF unveils Hamas map.
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1231424893023
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January 10, 2009
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@justin so the goal justify the purpose?:)
What they are after are irrelevant, they are bombing innocent people at a high scale.To use the “We thought there might have been hamas people or weapon in the school/shopping mall/UN camp – is a pretty lame excuse. Palestina killed what, 21 innocent israelis the last 8 years? israel have killed 30 times as many innocent the last 8 monts.
War can’t solve war. Only peace can.
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January 10, 2009
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Brave post… Think a lot of it comes back to two factors:
A) Response from Israel
B) Political protection from the US
Weigh up the response. 10 Israelis killed in the recent conflict vs 700 Palestinians – It has to be a realistic response.
Secondly it is very easy for Israel to be the playground bully as long as the US is happy to condone their actions in the UN / political arena… If the US wasn’t backing them they wouldn’t be so quick to cross foreign borders to start wars.
A more moderate stance from the US would go a long way to a more moderate Israel in my humble opinion
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January 10, 2009
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I totally agree with you Justin. I also dont think that Israel should just allow the attacks on them to continue, they need to show that their are consequences for their actions. Unfortunately un involved people are dying, yes. But as in just about any other war, dont people who dont deserve death die?
I think it is sad, but it is something that is necessary. Peace I dont feel is going to solve the war, when one side is not interested in that. (namely: hamas)
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January 10, 2009
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Brilliant blog post byJustin Hartman – http://tinyurl.com/a25lmk on Israel and Hamas
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January 10, 2009
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have a look at the Zoopy video from protest yesterday in pretoria. some interesting comments.
Free Palestine Protest
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January 10, 2009
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OMG! — This is probably the most illogical , most invalid and most ignorant argument i’ve read in my entire life.
I’ve got nothing else to add to that.
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January 10, 2009
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Why do you feel that it is illogical? Do you think Israel should just sit around and not do anything about the acts of terror?
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January 10, 2009
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“‘He beat me, he robbed me. Look at how he abused and injured me’ Live with those thoughts and you will never stop hating … Abandon such thoughts and your hatred and suffering will cease” The Dhammapada. But who will give up their fear and hatred when it is not safe to do so?
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January 10, 2009
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Yasser – thanks for the extremely insightful, opinionated and helpful comment. Really glad you put so much thought in to it.
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January 10, 2009
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@Noel
Of course Israel shouldn’t allow it to happen. Hamas isn’t the “good” people at all. But that doesn’t justify to do acts of terror back. They are bombing civilians for fucks sake! I can’t believe anyone even tries to justify that. Not in 2009.
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January 10, 2009
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Im not justifying the killing of innocent people. However, it is true that Hama’s is hiding amongst the innocent people like cowards and for that reason, if Israel did not take that kind of stance, they would not be able to deal with Hama’s. I feel sorry for the people, but in order to have peace, I believe that there sometimes has to be suffering. What makes 2009 so much more special than any other year in history, I think its not, and I think that people need to stop pointing fingers at Israel and the blame needs to be placed smack bang on Hama’s.
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January 10, 2009
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@Noel
Hamas killed 20 civilians over 7 years, Israel killed 700 in 7 months. I think we point our finger in the right direction.
And yes, by supporting Israel you are justifying the killing of civilians. That is what Israel is doing. I am not against the use of military power, and I am not against acts against Hamas. But what Israel is doing now is FAR over the line of anything near acceptable.
Israel is not trying to work with Hamas to get an solution, Israel is working against Hamas to get THEIR solution. Both solutions are bad, and until one or both of the parties acknowledges that, peace will not be in order no matter how many bombs Israel use on civilians.
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January 10, 2009
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@Socraton Your statistics are way off.
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January 10, 2009
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So do you see Hama’s as terrorists? Now depending on how you answer the following sentence will be true or false:
Yes Hama’s are a terrorist faction: Then you are saying, ok lets negotiate with terrorists.
No Hama’s is not in the wrong and they are not a terrorist faction: Ok, Israel is being unreasonable and should sit down and discuss this with the not-terrorists.
Could you please refer to the following blog post: http://www.noelharrison.net/archives/83 and actually look at what the objectives of Hama’s are. I think you will change your mind reasonably quickly. I think that your figures are a bit wrong too.
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January 10, 2009
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Ah, I’m sorry, it was just an estimate to make a point, not exact numbers.
My point(s) still stand.
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January 10, 2009
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I quote something from one of my blog posts “For months, Hamas thugs in Gaza have fired missiles and mortars into southern Israel, subjecting hundreds of thousands of Israelis to a campaign of 24-hour terror. This was done in clear violation of an Egyptian-negotiated cease-fire to which Hamas had agreed. Hamas ended the truce even against the wishes of some Muslim heads of state. Then after pounding Israel for a week, and after Israel warned it would respond” and “And, just as night follows day, each time Israel responds with force, it is condemned for its “disproportionate response.” This time around, more than 300 Palestinians have been killed, against four Israelis. But here’s why. Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas of the world, and Hamas is infamous for hiding among its constituents, using them as human shields. Weapons are being stored in mosques. The only university in Gaza has turned its labs over to the terrorists, who are using them to make bombs and mortars. These cowards intentionally set up their bases near schools and hospitals to maximize the number of casualties to gain sympathy in the media.” and “Gaza, in recent years, has been turned into “Gazastan,” an Islamic republic that educates its own children to seek death in martyrdom operations. Gaza TV airs children’s shows that teach six and seven year-olds to kill Jews.”
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January 10, 2009
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Loving the discussion fueled by @justinhartman’s post http://is.gd/eYeb
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January 10, 2009
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And therefore, killing civilians are ok.(?)
Bombing civilians is not a solution to the conflict at all. There is a reason the UN doesn’t occupy countries to make peace there – it just doesn’t work that way. Look at Iraq. As long as the hate persist and both parties fight for their own solution, peace will not come. One of the parties will have to back down and be cooperative, and that part should be Israel. Not because their solution to the conflict is worse, but because they are the strongest part. Bombing and war should be left over to the UN.
Some statistics, since we brought it up: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html
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January 10, 2009
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Life expectancy in Gaza Strip: 73
Life expectancy in West Bank: 74
Life expectancy in Israel: 81
Life expectancy in South Africa: 49
South Africa has much bigger problems to resolve.
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2102rank.html
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January 10, 2009
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Well.. I must say I strongly disagree with your biased opinion which practically justifies what Israel is doing in Gaza.
Just a question? How would you like for a group of people to come and occupy your country? Wont you ressist by any chance? Is it what the Israeli doing to the Palestinians, fair? Answer me please. I hope one of you still has some sort of guiding principles.
Your a bit naive, telling people that Hamas are firing rockets to distrupt peace in the middle east.
I will tell you why Hamas was firing their rockets at Israel. Two years ago, the Palestinian elected Hamas as their representors. The trouble all begins when Israel declares Hamas as group of terrorists, and then Hamas call the occupnist (in that case Israel) an inproper country.
As a result Israel decides to besiege Gaza. For two years Gaza was besieged, the borders were closed, Egypt even closed its borders. No food, No gas for water and electricity came to Gaza. A humiterean crisis was bound to the Gazains. And I will come to telling you why Hamas was firing those rockets over to Israel.
So Hamas wanted to take action, and the only action they could of had taken is to fire rocket over to Israel.
If Israel broke the siege then Hamas would stop. Simple aye?
This war is unfair, the Palestinians suffered alot, to the Israels our blood is nothing.
Plus, what logic are you guys using condeming Hamas for the death of the Palestinian children?!?!? Israel is attacking has bombed every inch of 10km X 40km Gaza which is home 1.5 million humans. Please! Israel are terrorists, the TV should prove that to you.
The cartoon should of had the Hamas militant tell the Israel: “If you and your allies (Egypt) open the border allowing matter to go back to the norm, I will not poke you.” And the Israeli saying “If you evacuate your home, and leave your country to me, I wont punch you.”
Whats now going on in Gaza is a holocaust targetting the Palestinian. I on my behalf intiate all of you to condemn Israel for its terrorist actions.
Unfortunaltly, people lost all their sense of guiding principles, we live in a relation built world
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January 11, 2009
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@mohammed
Well, to say the only option Hamas had was firering rockets over Israel is to take it a bit far. Hamas has no reason to shoot at civilians and break peace treaties.
But the fact that Gaza is one of the most populated places in the world is a good point. That pretty much takes down the argument that “hamas is hiding in the public”, since there are no such place as a place without people.
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January 11, 2009
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Well, first of all Hamas has been internationally declared a terrorist faction. If they are a legitimate government, then they were voted into power. The people of Gaza deserve the government they choose and the consequences that come with it. And there is also a saying that no pain, no gain. Well I think that that covers your comment about war for peace. @Mohammed The TV???? What kind of source is that! They will side with the side that is going to make them the most money. Also, Hamas has said that they do not want peace and it has been declared that their mission is to see Israel destroyed! No what? Do you leave yourself to people who have openly stated their aims to have you dead? No, you react in the best interest of your people, just as Israel has done. Sorry, but all those backing Hamas, you have been blinded by the media! Your opinion’s seem to be overshadowing the real facts that are not disputed in reality.
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January 11, 2009
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Justin, you are entitled to your opinion and thanks for sharing it. However i must say the post above just shows your lack of knowledge on Middle eastern politics. Some of the sites you are reading seem to be hasbara websites (propaganda), http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hasbara by Israeli government agencies. Secondly, the figures may be true, but why no mention of the Palestinian deaths since then(Mostly civillian) ? Would that show a totally different picture? 6000+ deaths since 2000. For the last 8 years there have been raids done by the every single month killing people. Have a look at the palestinian human rights monitoring group.
(http://www.phrmg.org/aqsa/fatalities_list.htm)
This conflict has been going on for decades, before you or i were even born.
But take the current conflict in context, and forget everything before. 2 Years ago, Hamas was elected in a free and fair election to be the leaders of the Palestinian authority.
What did the west (US,UK & Israel) do? Instead of engaging with them, they tried to stage a coup. Put their man Abas in power, supporting Fatah in overthrowing the ELECTED party.
This didnt work, and Hamas expelled all fatha members. Since then the entire Gaza strip has been in a blockade, air, sea and borders with other countries.
Your statement “We are easy to forget history” totally leaves out the Palestinian casualties. A point proving ignorance in the history of this particular conflict. But lets get back on point.
The naval, air and blockade of the borders has been designed to STARVE the people of GAZA, to create a humanitarian crisis so the PEOPLE of GAZA revolt against hamas. This particular operation “Cast & Lead” was planned as far back as January/Feb last year (As confirmed by Israeli news sources, ill try and dig up the link)
6 Months ago, Both Hamas and israel agreed to a 6 month cease fire. The conditions of the Cease fire were, no rocket attacks from Hamas. In exchange Israel would Open up the borders, and not conduct further raids/killings in Gaza.
Here’s the most important part, As confirmed by CNN and many other News media agencies, in the middle of November Israel conducted raids on Gaza killing a few people. This was widely reported(i.e Israel broke the cease fire), also during this time the borders were never opened. Hence when the 19th of December came about Hamas chose NOT to renew the cease fire. Since Israel was not holding up to their end. Hamas have repeatedly made it known they are willing to agree to cease fires lasting decades, on condition the people of palestine live FREE as in free like you and i. Free in that food, medical supplies and aid can come into the country. Free as in the government that the people have chosen in a DEMOCRATIC election, is allowed to govern.
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January 11, 2009
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Justin, you mention some interesting stats, but they are pretty one-sided. It would be interesting to see some stats from both sides of this conflict.
Be that as it may: The Palestinian people have a legitimate claim to their land. As far as I can see, Israel’s right to existence is particularly suspect. A bunch of Western governments simply decided to take an occupied territory and move the locals out of it in order to make way for a state to cater that is based on race and religion. (See this article of the Israel – Apartheid Analogy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_apartheid )
Nonetheless, there is no denying that Hamas is a cowardly terrorist organisation and that their tactics will achieve nothing in order to help the Palestinian people.
It is a shame that there has been no Palestinian Nelson Mandela or Mahatma Gandhi. My message to the Palestinian people: Learn from Gandhi and Mandela. Stop Hating. You cannot fight fire with fire, but only with water.
My message to the Israelis: Democracy is the only way to peace. Yes, you probably will be outnumbered by Palestinians in your parliament before too long, but you’ll find that this is not the end of the world, just the end of a state based on race & religion. And it’s not that bad. We’re doing fine here in South Africa.
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January 11, 2009
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Ok, one more thing Many people say that “Hamas” are internationally recognized as a “Terrorist” org, this is factually incorrect. There are about 4-5 countries that list them as a terrorist org. US,UK,Israel. No other countries do except for a small MINORITY of countries. However since these countries(US), largely control the major media outlets (CNN,BBC etc) thats what everyone things. Interestingly the US themselves removed HAMAS from the official terrorist list in 2002. But was subsequently put back on(pressure from somewhere? )
Regarding suicide attacks (I cant speak here as i dont know of any that hamas have claimed) Though i do know they agreed with Fatah Many years ago that for them to achieve their objectives: Freedom for the people of Palestine, all Acts of Terror(Suicide bombings etc) should be stopped.
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January 11, 2009
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[...] Hartman is upset about the ANC, the ruling South African party, condemning the attacks on Gaza by Israel: [...]
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January 11, 2009
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A former zionist Jew says enough is enough, no more killing in his name.
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/12/28/114432/83/489/677860
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January 12, 2009
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Hi Justin
You’ve inspired me to do a bit of research on this topic (and a lot of other people in South Africa) – well done for that.
The core of your arguments is: “The critical point here is that despite a ceasefire militants continued their onslaught and in my mind it is impossible for any country, not just Israel, to continue avoiding attacks on your people when a handful of extremists keep disregarding the peace.”
However, since the ceasefire agreement on 19 June 2008 the rockets, the rockets (at least initially) were in response to Israeli aggression and at first condemned by Hamas:
- on 24 June 2008 Israel raided Nablus, and rockets were fired into Israel by Islamic Jihad (Hamas condemned the rocket attacks).
- On 4 Nov Israel raided Gaza killing 6 Hamas members, which Hamas claimed was a massive breach of the truce, whereafter this is when rocket attacks increased sharply.
You’ve been brave to put your point of view forward and I commend you for that. I also encourage others to study the facts and state their opinions as boldly as you have – this leads to more knowledge and insight about the situation.
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January 12, 2009
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My Gaza post is spurring massive debate which I think is mostly constructive…. up to 52 comments now. http://is.gd/eYeb
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January 12, 2009
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lemme try that again RT @justinhartman My Gaza post is spurring massive debate which I think is mostly constructive. http://is.gd/eYeb
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January 12, 2009
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Loads of links, loads of stats and LAODS of tits for tats…
@Justin – I liked your post – you stated your views and justified your perspective within your context.
@Socraton – you are very ignorant!
@Democratic Capitalist – I don’t think Israel has backing from the US, just understanding. The US would do the same if Canada started launching rockets. And I hope to g-d that South Africa would do the same if Swaziland hypothetically started launching rockets into SA.
We need to remember that Israel is “For Life” – they have managed to turn a desert into a thriving 1st world country. They have no reason to attack Gaza other than to protect their people.
I can’t remember his exact words, but I like what Obama said on CNN…
“If my neighbor was firing rockets into my back yard putting my children in danger, I would do something about it.”
I don’t like seeing innocent people getting injured or killed and peace is something I would love to see in the middle east.
Israel, like any other country, has a right to defend it’s citizens.
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January 12, 2009
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Captonian – thanks for your comment. My only point with this post was in fact to give a different perspective to things which I think it has achieved.
Just in terms of the ceasefire issue. I’m am really of the opinion that we will truly not know the exact circumstances. CNN claim Israel is to blame, other sources say Hamas is to blame.
In fact, Mitchell Bard, a foreign policy analyst who lectures frequently on U.S. Middle East policy has stated that in fact Israel is not to blame for breaking the ceasefire. He says:
The only point with this is that we can debate who broke the ceasefire all year however everyone is an expert and everyone has a different perspective. This IMHO is open to various different interpretations that none of us will agree on.
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January 12, 2009
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Ismail – I am in full agreement that I don’t understand middle-east politics however I tried to inform myself and interpret that in my own way as I saw the facts.
Your opinion is highly respected by me and you are a person who’s input I value so I thank you for taking the time to respond.
The reality of my post is that I wanted to shed a different light on things based on how I had seen things.
While this debate has raged on and I loved the points, stats and view points, I still stand by my position that I can clearly see why Israel have done what they have.
UN resolutions allow for any country to protect themselves and Israel are not in breach of that. In terms of whether or not their force is warranted I think the jury is still out on that one and my own personal perspective is undecided.
I hate the fact that hundreds of innocent people are dying every day and it does not sit well with me – doesn’t matter who’s to blame here! My only hope is that it all ends sooner rather than later – for everyone’s sake!!!
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January 12, 2009
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Hmmm …
One man’s terrorist is another man’s Freedom Fighter ….
I don’t condone war, but if you where constantly provoked how else would you react ? To think this all started with 2 Brothers, eish.
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January 12, 2009
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Wow – where have I been on this post – taking an ostrich approach
Yes Israel have a right to protect their people and yes Hamas have launched one too many rockets – but the force of the attack is shocking
Go after Hamas – but leave the people out and I think that the IDF has the intelligence and capacity to infiltrate gaza differently and get their targets without the mass carnage
as for egypt and the closing its borders to the gaza refugees – its like the holocaust when the jews left their homes on ships and no country would take them in – so they died at sea.
This conflict is as old as time – i don’t think we will see a resolution in this life-time
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January 12, 2009
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on the -ANC/SACP view-
It’s not like they have condemned things in Zimbabwe either …
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January 12, 2009
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Carls, I could not agree more with you!!!
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January 12, 2009
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@Dale drop it
@Justin
Yeah, I never figured this blogpost of yours would cause such a massive posting. Debate is important, good job in making one.
On topic: You say that you totally understand Israel. I do that to! Most people (err, at least many) do. But of course you understand Hamas as well. They’ve hated Israel their whole life, why would they stop now? What should they do instead, become shepherds?
But understanding and agreeing is two way different points. I understand that Israel wants to defend themselves and stop Hamas, but I do not in any way agree in the bombings of civilians.
Bombing civilians in another country does not count for as to “protect themselves”, no matter how people twist and turn on it. If someone is going to attack another country, it should be the UN, and noone else.
@carls
Actually, I think we are close to peace there. Give it 20 years and I think we have it. As education and technology goes up, people will drop all the mindless war-things. But I might be a bit too optimistic. Time will tell
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January 12, 2009
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If I was a politician and I wanted to get more votes for the Western Cape it would be obvious to me that the Muslim vote in the Cape could swing it for me.
Therefore comdemning Israel is a given.
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January 12, 2009
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@Bobby. I never thought of it like that, but it does make sense!
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January 12, 2009
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@Bobby: Yes a great perspective and I’d like to chat about this for a moment.
The SA thing in my post really bugged me and while the debate has raged around the middle-east only a few have commented on the SA link.
Personally I have no problem with SA taking either sides, it doesn’t really matter to me, however my issue is with the fact that they picked sides here and have done nothing about condemning Zim.
Don’t you think there would be even more votes if a proper stance was taken on Zimbabwe?
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January 12, 2009
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@Ismail – Yes, Hamas may be “listed” as a terrorist organization by certain countries, but that does not mean the rest of the world think they not. The fact is they are extremists. Have you ever wondered why Muslim countries arent doing anything? Saudi Arabia, Jordon, Egypt and UAE had other things to attend to when there was a call for an Arab summit after the attacks started.
Having said that, there is no justification in killing innocent civillians.
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January 12, 2009
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Well to answer Nafisa question regarding why some of the Arab nations have done nothing about the current crisis.
The answer to this is simple, they simply lack Arab nationalism, apart from Qatar, and Syria, they are all simply leaders of corrupted governments, and traitors to the Palestinian cause.
To us Arab, we dont want Hosni Muburak and the likes of him (Al Saud) as our leader to us. They dont even represent us, they represent those who fund them and ensure them their kingdom.
The Arabian street fully recognized Hamas as a NON terrorist movement, they fund it, follow it, and protest for it. Let me make it simple, look at it this way: The every day Arab – is for Hamas and anti Israel. (We want Al Quds and the ’stolen’ Palestnian state back”
The odd Arab leader would simply stand with Israel and America, as they are the one who’d protect his seats.
Believe it or not, most of the Arabs have turned there loyalty to Iran, whom seems to have the will to fight back at Israel. Iran can simply dominate the Arab world sooner or later, everyone here is in support of them and their policy regarding Israel.
And back to you Noel, there will be peace as long as Israel is here. They took our lands, and we want them back, simple? Europe threw its garbage at us, by sending us those Zionists. We want Europe to come clean the garbage here.
Please.. take the jew back from were he came from 50 years ago.
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January 12, 2009
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@justin: The quote you posted seems like that particular analyst has been well trained in the art of Hasbara (Govt Sponsored) Israeli propaganda. Re-read it again, i have seen training programmes for propaganda like this. Examples are never refer to someone as an ‘Activist’ or freedom fighter. Brand them terrorists (Irrespective if it may be true or not) or better yet, when reporting on Anti-War protests, dont call it a protest… It’s a RIOT.
The description at the end is the best though. Lets look at the facts, Israel: F16, Tanks, Precision bombs, the best weapons. vs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qassam_rocket , Made in a similar way that they make things like fireworks. Using common fertalizers etc. Nowhere is the palestinian cause mentioned of the constant fear and bombing, raids etc.
An yes, there are UN international laws against Excessive Force / Disapproriate force / collective punishment. Which Israel is guilty of.
In addition, Israel have totally ignored tons of UN resolutions, i.e cease occupying pre1967 borders. Fact is To this day israel is an occupying force, millions of people have been displaced for Decades. Millions of people are refugees for decades, legally regarded by the UN as refugees that originally inhabited what is now modern day Israel.
The political leaders of Hamas have repeatedly announced their intentions of a long term cease fire and peace deal
“On 13 February 2006, in an interview in Russian newspaper Nezavisimaya Gazeta,[39] Mashal again held up the possibility of “a long-term truce with Israel” if Israel recognized the 1949 armistice lines, withdraw itself from all Palestinian territories (including the West Bank and East Jerusalem) and recognized Palestinian rights that would include the “right of return”. He reaffirmed this stance in a 5 March 2008 interview with Al Jazeera English”
@nafisa agreed, the miltary wing may be regarded as terrorists however the Hamas Political Arm, is different and were elected. During the elections, they made it clear they were willing for a long term cease fire with israel on condition Israel would cease occupying, Also the previous mantra in which israel was not recognized was not even part of the manifesto.
Remember, Umkhonto we Sizwe was founded by Nelson Mandela. Responsible for a number of bombings between 60’s and 80’s, they were also regarded as a ‘Terrorist’ org. In 94, he was elected to the presidency and was responsible for SA’s transformation. i.e His view changed from that of ‘Violence being the answer’ to that of reconciliation. Point being Hamas as an ORG was democratically elected, and when they start saying would like to discuss solutions. What is the response? Starve, block all borders, restrict movements and support rival parties in an uprising.
???? uh… WTF?
Read this
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/this-is-like-%20apartheid-anc-veterans-visit-west-bank-865063.html
What are people that have been oppressed for decades do?
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January 12, 2009
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Some more reading material, from WSJ
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123154826952369919.html?mod=googlenews_wsj
And read this report from a guy in Gaza
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/soon-well-have-nowhere-left-to-run-nowhere-in-gaza-is-safe-1301560.html
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January 12, 2009
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@Mohammed
The west is aware of that Arabs are generally not big fan of Israel and Jews.
@The rest
I will advice everyone to ignore the anti jew comment of Mohammed, and keep on topic.
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January 12, 2009
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What Mohammed is saying is the reality on the ground. A lot of people in SA would also love to get rid of some if not all the white people in SA but the big difference is that they have not been brainwashed into believing that that could actually happen. Hence no war!
In past centuries the Jews of the world were kicked out of Israel and neighbouring territories and therefore ended up in Europe.
They then got kicked out of Europe and had no option but to go back to Israel.
They knew that when they went back to Israel the Arab world would think of them as vermin and garbage as they were used to that type of treatment so they made sure that they are strong.
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January 12, 2009
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Here’s a quote from vladamir Jabotinsky, father of revisionist zionism. “There can be no discussion of a voluntary reconciliation between us and the Arabs… Any native people…view their country as their national home… They will not voluntarily allow, not only a new master, but even a new partner… Colonization can have only one goal. For the Palestinian Arabs this goal is inadmissible. This is in the nature of things. To change that nature is impossible… colonization can, therefore, continue and develop only under the protection of a force independent of the local population – an iron wall which the native population cannot break through. This is, in toto, our policy towards the Arabs. To formulate it any other way would only be hypocrisy.”
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January 12, 2009
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Justin, thanks for your detailed reply. Mitchell Bard seems biased in that he, like you, flags the rockets fired by Palestinians, but not the Israeli raids & killings (other than the latest massacre).
You said: “The only point with this is that we can debate who broke the ceasefire all year however everyone is an expert and everyone has a different perspective. This IMHO is open to various different interpretations that none of us will agree on.” You don’t seem as certain anymore that it was Palestinians that continuously broke the ceasefire.
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January 12, 2009
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@mohamed, please understand the problems in Palestine is not caused by “Jews” It is a conflict caused by the Zionist Ideology, which according to orthodox Jewish scholars goes against Jewish principals. There is no need to be Racist!
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January 12, 2009
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Read this for more info:
http://www.nkusa.org/activities/Speeches/20081227.cfm
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January 12, 2009
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It’s very easy to create your own permutation of history by cherry picking your events from a timeline.
You’ve biassed yours by picking those in favour of Israel. I choose to pick the 1st and the last, starting in 1948 when there was no Israel, and ending today where Israel continues to butcher as race it considers sub-human, while pro-zionists, ill-informed jews and christians and well-paid arabs stand by and applaud.
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January 12, 2009
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Judasim and Zionism are not the same thing:
http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/judaism_isnot_zionism.cfm
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January 12, 2009
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I innitially said that i ain’t had nothing to add to this — but … i just couldn’t hold it anylonger.
@Socraton why should we ignore Mohammed’s comment? coz Socraton says so?
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January 12, 2009
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Capetonian – What has become clearer to me is that there are various conflicting reports which leaves a lot of doubt in the whole matter. It could just be propaganda from both sides but I do concede that it’s not as clear-cut as I had imagined before.
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January 12, 2009
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No Yasser – because it’s simply racist slander…
I am of the belief that this discussion has been largely constructive and to turn it into racism is just not OK.
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January 12, 2009
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if Mohammed’s comment is a “…racist slander…” (as you call it) then this is a racist post.
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January 12, 2009
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I’m sorry but if you don’t think this is a racist comment then you have some serious issues.
Please highlight where you’ve felt I’ve been racist on this post. I’d like to see your definition of racism.